The story of defence couple, Carole Popham and Christina Dennis, started over 50 years ago in the Women's Royal Australian Air Force.

Both born in the '40s, without knowing it they grew up within 350kms of each other in northern Queensland: Carole in Townsville and Christina in Cairns. Coming of age in 1960s Australia - a time of limited work and education opportunities for women - in 1963 and ’64 respectively, Carole and Christina each jumped at the chance to join up and serve their country.

The WRAAF offered the women a chance to travel and see Australia, to meet other people from all walks of life and the opportunity to work in an interesting and challenging environment that home just couldn’t offer.

After meeting in the service 1964, and developing a romantic relationship at the end of 1967, Carole and Christina’s Air Force careers were cut short by the prevailing conservative morals and military regulations of the day. To avoid persecution from within, in late 1968 Carole and Christina decided to out their relationship to their WRAAF officer and voluntarily discharge from the Air Force.

Excelling in their respective musterings, it was not an easy decision to make and was a huge sacrifice. The ban on open service for LGB members in Australia’s military would endure for another three long decades, finally overturned by the Commonwealth government in 1992.

Carole and Christina have been together for 53 years, living in the same Melbourne suburb for almost as long. Much loved in their local community, their story is inspiring, funny, moving and courageous.

They are unassuming trailblazers for today’s queer ADF community.

Defending with Pride: Voices is a podcast produced for the Shrine of Remembrance to accompany the exhibition Defending with Pride: Stories of LGBTQ+ service.

Content warning:

Parental guidance is recommended: this audio program contains adult themes and concepts.

Support:

If this program raises any issues for you, feel free to call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Qlife on 1800 184 527. Or scroll down for additional support services.

Disclaimer:

The opinions expressed in this podcast are those of individual contributors and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Shrine of Remembrance.

CREDITS

Speakers:

Christina Dennis (WRAAF)

Carole Popham (WRAAF)

Huge thanks to Christina and Carole for generously sharing their story, insights and perspectives; for their patience during the pandemic and for their hospitality.

Interviewer/Producer/Sound:

Megan Spencer 

Archival audio:

‘New Careers: Women of the RAAF’ 1958, (excerpts), courtesy of Cinesound Movietone Productions and the National Film and Sound Archive. Used with kind permission.

Music:

Emu and Brolga, commissioned by the Royal Australian Air Force Band. An original composition by Gamilaraay Yuwaalaraay man James Henry, performed by the Air Force Band Wind Quintet.

Ensemble:

Flight Sergeant Adam Schlemitz - Bassoon

Corporal Laila Engle - Flute

Corporal Robert Scott - Clarinet

Leading Aircraftman Salvador Blasco Celda - Oboe

Aircraftman Aidan Gabriels - French horn

Original ‘Kissed’ music:

Philip Brophy

Audio mastering:

Kris Keogh

Special thanks:

Professor Noah Riseman; Glenn Eley at Cinesound Movietone Productions; Siobhan Dee at NFSA and Jessica Ferrari at Memento Media.

Flight Sergeant Dr. Ralph Whiteoak, RAAF Band, composer James Henry (Gamilaraay Yuwaalaraay) and the Royal Australian Air Force Wind Quintet.

Thank you to the Shrine team: Sue Burgess, Laura Thomas and Kate Spinks, curator of the Defending with Pride exhibition.

Support:

If this podcast raises any issues for you, support is available from the following services:

• QLife Australia’s first nationally-oriented counselling and referral service for LGBTI people. Phone: 1800 184 527
• Defence Gay and Lesbian Information Service  Defence Gay and Lesbian Information Service provides policy and community information to gay, lesbian and bisexual, transgender, intersex and non-binary serving and ex-serving members of Defence and their families.

• Discharged LGBTI Veterans' Association (DVLA) A support and advocacy association for Australian Defence Force personnel, their family and their friends who were adversely impacted by Defence's historic anti-LGBTI policies. Phone 0400 124 213.

• Thorne Harbour HealthProvides professional, affordable counselling for members of LGBTIQ+ communities and individuals or couples who are affected by or at risk of HIV.
• Open Arms Free and confidential, 24/7 national counselling service for Australian veterans and their families, provided through the Department of Veterans’ Affairs (DVA). Phone: 1800 011 046 
• Lifeline Suicide and crisis support. Phone: 13 11 14

Watch:

Women’s Air Force History documentary series by Jessica Ferrari

Read:

Serving in Silence: Australian LBGT Servicemen and women by Noah Riseman, Shirlene Robnson & Graham Willett published by New South.

Visit:

Defending with Pride: Stories of LGBTQ+ service exhibition at the Shrine of Remembrance, open from August 2022 until August 2023.

Episode duration:

57:15

 

 

This podcast is part of a powerful two-part series that explores the history of LGBTIQ+ military service in Australia, produced by award-winning podcast maker, Megan Spencer.

It begins in 1982 with the unsuccessful attempt of five gay ex-servicemen to lay a wreath at the Shrine of Remembrance on Anzac Day, to honour their “fallen gay and lesbian brothers and sisters”. Forty years later, on ANZAC Day 2022, the story comes full circle with the annual Rainbow Wreath-laying service by DEFGLIS uniformed members and allies, in the Shrine’s hallowed Sanctuary.

In between these two landmark moments, the story of LGBTIQ+ service unfolds through the voices and lived experience of current and former ADF service members, pre- and post- the 1992 ban on “homosexual service” in Australia’s military.

The Power of the Wreath podcast accompanies the Shrine’s new exhibition, Defending with Pride: Stories of LGBTQ+ service, on from August 1^st 2022 - August 2023.

Content warning:

Parental guidance recommended: this audio program contains adult themes, mild coarse language and sexual references. It also contains references to suicide. If you need support, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14. A comprehensive list of support services is also included below.

Disclaimer:

The opinions expressed in this podcast are those of individual contributors and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Shrine of Remembrance.

Credits

Speakers:

Squadron Leader Nathan White

Professor Noah Riseman

Stuart Martin (former Flight Lieutenant)

Max Campbell (former Warrant Officer, dec.)

Flight Lieutenant Lachlan Saunders

Phil Neil (former Leading Aircraftman)

Group Captain Mick Janson

Grateful thanks to each speaker for generously sharing their insights, research and/or lived experience for this podcast.

Interviewer/Producer/Sound: Megan Spencer

Feature image: 

DEFGLIS members and supporters: From left: GPCAPT Mick Jansen, FLTLT Danie Bunting, FLGOFF(AAFC) Dan Morris, FLTLT Brad Milsteed, FLTLT Lachlan Saunders, Stuart Martin, Bron Richardson, LTCOL Kristy Hudson, Sameer Mane

Archival audio:

Max Campbell: oral history interview with Noah Riseman. Recorded 13 March 2015. Donated to the Australian Queer Archives used with kind permission.

Additional audio:

Excerpts of The Dawn Service at the Shrine of Remembrance, Melbourne, ANZAC Day, 25^th April 2022, recorded by the Shrine of Remembrance.

Music:

Didgeridoo: Bunurong man Eric Edwards. Live recording from the Victorian Aboriginal Remembrance Service 31^st May, 2022, recorded by the Shrine of Remembrance. Used with kind permission.

Original “Kissed” music: Philip Brophy

Selected tracks from The Diggers’ Requiem: arranged, curated and conducted by Christopher Latham (musical artist in residence at the Australian War Memorial) with soloists. Used with kind permission.

• ’62,000 Bells For 62,000 Australian Dead’, recorded at the ANU School of Music by Veronica Bailey, Thomas Laue and Chris Latham (in Movement 12: ‘Lux Aeterna – In Paradisum’).
• ‘Dead March from Saul’, for accordion, choir, soloists & orchestra. Composer: GF Handel (in Movement 1: ‘Requiem Aeternum / Rest Eternal’).
• ‘Lament For The Pipers Who Fell In The Great War’. Composer: Pipe Major John Grant  (in Movement 12: ‘Lux Aeterna – In Paradisum’).

The Diggers’ Requiem was co-commissioned by Australian War Memorial and the Australian Government Department of Veterans’ Affairs. The concert performed in Amiens, France, on April 23, 2018, by Orchestre de Picardie and the Jena Philharmonic and with Australian soloists, conducted by Chris Latham. Listen here. 

Audio mastering:

Kris Keogh

Special thanks:

Professor Noah Riseman; Nick Henderson, Ange Bailey and Graham Willett from the Australian Queer Archives.

Bunurong man Eric Edwards for sharing his didgeridoo music in this program. Read more about his grandfather Uncle Henry “Harry” Thorpe (Brabuwooloong), who fought in WWI and was awarded a Military Medal.

Chris Latham and The Flowers of Peace project, and the musicians from The Diggers’ Requiem.

Thank you:

Department of Defence and Defence Media; Nathan White, Rachael Cosgrove and DEFGLIS; the Shrine team: Sue Burgess, Laura Thomas and Kate Spinks, curator of Defending with Pride.

See the Defending with Pride: Stories of LGBTQ+ service exhibition now at the Shrine of Remembrance, Melbourne, until August 2023.

Wreath-laying at the Shrine:

We welcome all members of our community to lay wreaths or other floral offerings at any of the many memorials at the Shrine. The Shrine hosts more than 150 official commemorative services each year to remember the service of Australian men and women, particularly Victorians, and we welcome our community to attend and participate. To find out more about remembrance services, or to apply to hold your own, visit this link. 

Support:

If this podcast raises any issues for you, support is available from the following services:

• QLife Australia’s first nationally-oriented counselling and referral service for LGBTI people. Phone: 1800 184 527
• Defence Gay and Lesbian Information ServiceDefence Gay and Lesbian Information Service provides policy and community information to gay, lesbian and bisexual, transgender, intersex and non-binary serving and ex-serving members of Defence and their families.

• Discharged LGBTI Veterans' Association (DVLA) A support and advocacy association for Australian Defence Force personnel, their family and their friends who were adversely impacted by Defence's historic anti-LGBTI policies. Phone 0400 124 213.

• Thorne Harbour HealthProvides professional, affordable counselling for members of LGBTIQ+ communities and individuals or couples who are affected by or at risk of HIV.
• Open Arms Free and confidential, 24/7 national counselling service for Australian veterans and their families, provided through the Department of Veterans’ Affairs (DVA). Phone: 1800 011 046 
• Lifeline Suicide and crisis support. Phone: 13 11 14
• Beyond Blue Free, immediate, short-term counselling advice and referral. Phone: 1300 224 636 
• Suicide Call Back Service 24-hour counselling service for suicide prevention and mental health. Phone: 1300 659 467 

Read:

• Pride in Defence: The Australian Military and LGBTI Service since 1945 (2020), Melbourne University Press and Serving in Silence? Australian LGBT servicemen and women (2018), New South Books. 
• Curator Kate Spinks’ article , ‘Experiences of LGBTQI+ Personnel’ 
• The Shrine’s Media Release: “40^th anniversary wreath-laying marks different era for LGBTIQ service veterans and personnel on ANZAC Day” 
• Noah Riseman’s essays on LGBTI service for The Conversation, here and here 
• Shirlene Robinson’s essay on LGBTI service for The Conversation here 
• Ben Winsor’s ‘The Secret History of Gay Diggers’ essay for SBS here 

Visit:

Victorian Pride Centre 

Episode duration:

52:37

This podcast is part of a powerful two-part series that explores the history of LGBTIQ+ military service in Australia, produced by award-winning podcast maker, Megan Spencer.

It begins in 1982 with the unsuccessful attempt of five gay ex-servicemen to lay a wreath at the Shrine of Remembrance on Anzac Day, to honour their “fallen gay and lesbian brothers and sisters”. Forty years later, on ANZAC Day 2022, the story comes full circle with the annual Rainbow Wreath-laying service by DEFGLIS uniformed members and allies, in the Shrine’s hallowed Sanctuary.

In between these two landmark moments, the story of LGBTIQ+ service unfolds through the voices and lived experience of current and former ADF service members, pre- and post- the 1992 ban on “homosexual service” in Australia’s military.

The Power of the Wreath podcast accompanies the Shrine’s new exhibition, Defending with Pride: Stories of LGBTQ+ service, on from August 1^st 2022 - August 2023.

Content warning:

Parental guidance recommended: this audio program contains adult themes, mild coarse language and sexual references. It also contains references to suicide. If you need support, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14. A comprehensive list of support services is also included below.

Disclaimer:

The opinions expressed in this podcast are those of individual contributors and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Shrine of Remembrance.

Credits

Speakers:

Squadron Leader Nathan White

Professor Noah Riseman

Stuart Martin (former Flight Lieutenant)

Max Campbell (former Warrant Officer, dec.)

Flight Lieutenant Lachlan Saunders

Phil Neil (former Leading Aircraftman)

Group Captain Mick Janson

Grateful thanks to each speaker for generously sharing their insights, research and/or lived experience for this podcast.

Interviewer/Producer/Sound: Megan Spencer

Archival audio:

Max Campbell: oral history interview with Noah Riseman. Recorded 13 March 2015. Donated to the Australian Queer Archives used with kind permission.

Additional audio:

Excerpts of The Dawn Service at the Shrine of Remembrance, Melbourne, ANZAC Day, 25^th April 2022, recorded by the Shrine of Remembrance.

Music:

Didgeridoo: Bunurong man Eric Edwards. Live recording from the Victorian Aboriginal Remembrance Service 31^st May, 2022, recorded by the Shrine of Remembrance. Used with kind permission.

Original “Kissed” music: Philip Brophy

Selected tracks from The Diggers’ Requiem: arranged, curated and conducted by Christopher Latham (musical artist in residence at the Australian War Memorial) with soloists. Used with kind permission.

• ’62,000 Bells For 62,000 Australian Dead’, recorded at the ANU School of Music by Veronica Bailey, Thomas Laue and Chris Latham (in Movement 12: ‘Lux Aeterna – In Paradisum’).
• ‘Dead March from Saul’, for accordion, choir, soloists & orchestra. Composer: GF Handel (in Movement 1: ‘Requiem Aeternum / Rest Eternal’).
• ‘Lament For The Pipers Who Fell In The Great War’. Composer: Pipe Major John Grant  (in Movement 12: ‘Lux Aeterna – In Paradisum’).

The Diggers’ Requiem was co-commissioned by Australian War Memorial and the Australian Government Department of Veterans’ Affairs. The concert performed in Amiens, France, on April 23, 2018, by Orchestre de Picardie and the Jena Philharmonic and with Australian soloists, conducted by Chris Latham. Listen here. 

Audio mastering:

Kris Keogh

Special thanks:

Professor Noah Riseman; Nick Henderson, Ange Bailey and Graham Willett from the Australian Queer Archives.

Bunurong man Eric Edwards for sharing his didgeridoo music in this program. Read more about his grandfather Uncle Henry “Harry” Thorpe (Brabuwooloong), who fought in WWI and was awarded a Military Medal.

Chris Latham and The Flowers of Peace project, and the musicians from The Diggers’ Requiem.

Thank you:

Department of Defence and Defence Media; Nathan White, Rachael Cosgrove and DEFGLIS; the Shrine team: Sue Burgess, Laura Thomas and Kate Spinks, curator of Defending with Pride.

See the Defending with Pride: Stories of LGBTQ+ service exhibition now at the Shrine of Remembrance, Melbourne, until August 2023.

Wreath-laying at the Shrine:

We welcome all members of our community to lay wreaths or other floral offerings at any of the many memorials at the Shrine. The Shrine hosts more than 150 official commemorative services each year to remember the service of Australian men and women, particularly Victorians, and we welcome our community to attend and participate. To find out more about remembrance services, or to apply to hold your own, visit this link. 

Support:

If this podcast raises any issues for you, support is available from the following services:

• QLife Australia’s first nationally-oriented counselling and referral service for LGBTI people. Phone: 1800 184 527
• Defence Gay and Lesbian Information ServiceDefence Gay and Lesbian Information Service provides policy and community information to gay, lesbian and bisexual, transgender, intersex and non-binary serving and ex-serving members of Defence and their families.

• Discharged LGBTI Veterans' Association (DVLA) A support and advocacy association for Australian Defence Force personnel, their family and their friends who were adversely impacted by Defence's historic anti-LGBTI policies. Phone 0400 124 213.

• Thorne Harbour HealthProvides professional, affordable counselling for members of LGBTIQ+ communities and individuals or couples who are affected by or at risk of HIV.
• Open Arms Free and confidential, 24/7 national counselling service for Australian veterans and their families, provided through the Department of Veterans’ Affairs (DVA). Phone: 1800 011 046 
• Lifeline Suicide and crisis support. Phone: 13 11 14
• Beyond Blue Free, immediate, short-term counselling advice and referral. Phone: 1300 224 636 
• Suicide Call Back Service 24-hour counselling service for suicide prevention and mental health. Phone: 1300 659 467 

Read:

• Pride in Defence: The Australian Military and LGBTI Service since 1945 (2020), Melbourne University Press and Serving in Silence? Australian LGBT servicemen and women (2018), New South Books. 
• Curator Kate Spinks’ article , ‘Experiences of LGBTQI+ Personnel’ 
• The Shrine’s Media Release: “40^th anniversary wreath-laying marks different era for LGBTIQ service veterans and personnel on ANZAC Day” 
• Noah Riseman’s essays on LGBTI service for The Conversation, here and here 
• Shirlene Robinson’s essay on LGBTI service for The Conversation here 
• Ben Winsor’s ‘The Secret History of Gay Diggers’ essay for SBS here 

Visit:

Victorian Pride Centre 

Episode duration:

 44:54

 

This episode of For Kin and Country Yarns was recorded during Reconciliation Week following the Victorian Aboriginal Remembrance Service (May 2022). In this podcast, guest host and acclaimed Gunditjmara actor Tom Molyneux yarns with Ngarigo Dunghutti veteran Rex Solomon about family connection to service, experience in the forces and reflections on how First People's service is commemorated today.

Credits:

Speaker: Rex Solomon 

Interviewer: Tom Molyneux 

Editor: Laura Thomas 

Music: 

Title: Emu and Brolga

Composer: James Henry

Performed by: Air Force Band Wind Quintet

This song was debuted at the Shrine of Remembrance for the Victorian Aboriginal Remembrance Service. 

Audio Mastering:

Kris Keogh 

Special thanks:

Megan Spencer, for her keen ear and feedback on this podcast.  

Disclaimer: 

The opinions expressed in this podcast are those of individual contributors and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Shrine of Remembrance.

Support: 

If this interview raises any issues for you, please contact:

Lifeline on 13 11 14

Open Arms (formerly VVCS) - Veterans & Families Counselling on 1800 011 046 or visit their website.

13 YARN, Australia’s first, 24/7, national, Indigenous-led Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander crisis support line. Phone 13 92 76, or visit their website

Episode duration:

42:22

For more information about the For Kin and Country exhibition at the Shrine of Remembrance, click here.